T: Hi Keith. This is Thomas. How are you? It’s a pleasure to chat with you. Thank you so much for taking the time to speak with us.

K: Oh, thank you. I appreciate it.

T: No it’s not a problem. Our conversation is going to go on The Matthew Shepard Foundation’s website for young people called MatthewsPlace.com. We have been very, very proud to be involved with Diana and “The Sensei” folks. So we’re excited to be doing this and just have a couple of questions for you. Shouldn’t take too much of your time.

K: That’s fine.

T: If you could tell me a little bit about why you got involved with this project?

K: Well, first of all, one of the reasons why I get involved with any project is because someone offers me a job. But, I mean, also contingent upon my reading the script and believing in the story. So when I read the script, I was very moved by the story and, certain different parts of my life, I have even lived parts of this story because. I’ve been an actor my whole life, therefore been in the arts my whole life. And have faced the kind of sexual discrimination that the story speaks to. And have seen results as it happens in the story. And all the gamut of stories around that.

T: What would you say in your opinion is the overarching message of the film?

K: Well, I don’t even know if there’s just one. But first of all, believing in one’s self and, not letting labels get in your way. And when it comes to sexual [orientation], it’s sexual [orientation]. There’s nothing to do with your internal humanity. The man is a man and the woman is a woman no matter what her preference is about whom her mate is going to be.

T: We do a lot of work here at the Foundation with high school students, and we spend a lot of time talking to them about how they see hate manifest in their own communities. And I guess from your own experiences as, as an individual, what would you say to that high school student who continually faces being bullied for what makes him different? It may be size, it may be ethnicity, it may be sexual orientation, and it may be any of those things. So are there any thoughts or advice that you might give to someone who faces bullying on a consistent basis?

K: I believe that you have to confront that. I mean one way of doing it is to learn how to defend yourself against any kind of physicality. And certainly believing in yourself and not being afraid to confront those kinds those things when they come, when they come at you like that. I mean not everybody is going to desire to become a warrior. That doesn’t mean that you don’t fight back. [Harvey] Milk is a great example. There are different ways of fighting back to stand up for yourself. And stand up for those things that you believe in. I mean after all, it’s a sort of grand dichotomy. And paradox. But this is America, the land of freedom, celebrated and, and in this day and age we still face racial discrimination, and the new manifestation of that is sexual discrimination.

T: Well I find it very interesting --- I talked, when I was at a high school last week and I talked about what happened in Charleston, Mississippi last spring with their first integrated Prom that Morgan Freeman was involved in, and the kids looked at me like I was crazy --- “What do you mean? That doesn’t happen any more!” And then you go to say, “You know, the last school in the country was integrated in 1974.” So I guess, do you have any thoughts for the bully? The person who might be doing the bullying?

K: Well fear, I don’t want to cuss, but fear is a mother. And … for the bully who wants to walk around, and I mean for the physical bully, and [also] the emotional bully, the ones who may not walk around beating people up, but the ones who have battle axes for tongues and can’t help but say something discriminatory and hurtful to people eventually --- it may not happen today or tomorrow, but eventually the boom will be lowered on you. And you have to think about that because, I mean, karma is a mother. And it will come back at you in some form or another. And is that what you want? Because --- they call it Lex Talionis, the law of retribution, and what you, what you sow is what you’re going to reap. And that person whom you are bulling, it could be your brother, it could be your sister, and it could be your cousin, or someone you love. Someone who comes and uses fear of whom you love and care about. And how would you like that? I mean, the golden rule is not just a Christian ethic for those people, for those people who have discriminatory thoughts about Christianity. It is not just a Christian ethic. It is a spiritual practice of every culture in the world. And, I mean, that remains so, for a very good reason. And if you do not put that in practice, in practical practice, in your own life, one day you will be that person whom you wished you hadn’t harmed so.

T: Would you say that’s a theme in the film? Like an overarching message in the movie is “do unto others as you would have them do unto you?”

K: Certainly. I mean the one thing that I find really wonderfully told, wonderfully done in the film is the way she’s not heavy-handed. We are presented with a story of a complex nature, but she doesn’t bang you over the head. She’s doesn’t, go moral on you. She’s not preaching. You’re presented the story that is very offbeat as to her solution and we watch that solution unfold. I think it’s quite wonderful how all of a sudden, behind closed doors, he’s dealing with himself and dealing with the challenges that he faces in this small town. That mentality is a small town mentality, but it’s pervasive, it extends into the inner cities and the greater cities. And to the community. So it’s just a, it’s a little microcosm … Of course it happens, it happens all over the world in every pocket of the country. It’s transcendent. It is not ethnic. It is not socioeconomic. It happens across the board when you find somebody with this type of prejudice. And I have never in my life’s experience, found one “-ism” that wasn’t followed by another. So if you have one, if you harbor one “-ism” deep, somewhere deep inside, there is another one hiding waiting to be opened. I mean, a very strong apart of my opinion is, liberals are racists who don’t know it yet. Because they haven’t been confronted with yet it, and that’s how all these other “-isms” come into play. I mean, I don’t particularly care for labels as such because, that’s what happens. We all --- I have a white racist mentality and I recognize that because that is my societal inheritance. And I have to guard against that every day of my life.

T: How did you reach a place where you were able to recognize that?

K: If you live long enough and you walk around with your eyes open, you can’t help it. Now, and there are many people, as you see in the film even, there are people who sit around and watch, knowing something is going on wrong and don’t do anything about it. Those feelings when he first confronts him in the diner, wherever they are, and everybody sits around and watches it happen. They know it, they know it’s wrong … and doesn’t matter whose side, you let it happen. How does someone get killed or molested at a crowd on the subway? Because everybody’s sitting around afraid that the assailant is going to pull out a gun and shoot them, so they don’t want to help. [That] somehow that that anger is going to be turned around on them, so let me not interfere. So you would rather watch somebody get hurt badly, or even killed, before you interfere. Now those people are just as guilty as the person who was perpetrating them.

T: Oh, very much so. Well and that’s one thing I love about the film, is, later on in the film, the two young men who stood around and watched at the beginning no longer stand around and watch --- and stand up and say that “No sir, it was this individual that did this to McClain.”

K: Right.

T: But why does someone have to be hurt before someone else gains the courage to stand up and say this is not okay with me? Does that make sense?

K: Well, because human beings are driven by a thousand forms of fear.

T: Oh, very much.

K: And again, until it leaps in your face, sometimes smacks you in the face, we tend to be great foolers of ourselves, and we do not want to admit it because of the stigma surrounding any concept of fear. No one wants to admit how fearful they really are about this living life and being the kind of stand-up human being that you really dream about being in your inner fantasy. It’s one thing to dream about being Superman and it’s another thing to stand in front of a bullet. Or stand in front of a bully.

T: Oh, very much so. Well, I have to say thank you so much for your words because they’re very inspiring, and I know they’re going to resonate with the many young people that visit our site. But, are there projects that you’re working on currently that are exciting to you?

K: Yes. I’m a musician, I’m a singer, and I’m working on some wonderful singing projects. I hope to be appearing with some symphonies pretty soon, and I’ll be at the Columbus Jazz Ensemble in April. So if you’re in Columbus, Ohio, please come out.

T: Perfect. And if you ever make it to Denver I’ll certainly love to come and see you perform and say thanks to you in person as well. So thank you so very much for your time.

K: You’re so welcome.

T: Have a blessed afternoon.

K: You too. Buh-bye.

T: Buh-bye.