T: Hi Sab. It’s Thomas Howard with the Matthew Shepard Foundation. How are you?

S: Fine. How are you?

T: Very well. Thank you so much for chatting with me this afternoon.

S: Oh, you’re welcome.

T: Our conversation is going to go on the Foundation’s website for young people called MatthewsPlace.com. It’s a website that we created to offer resources to help young people lead healthy, productive, hate-free lives. So I just wanted to chat with you a few minutes about your involvement in “The Sensei”…  And I know that, or if I recall, that when you read the script, you mentioned to Diana that you wanted to play the role of the father.

S: Yes.

T: Why did that role speak to you?

S: Oh. Why, I thought it well-written, the character.

T: Okay.

S: And --- how do I put it? If I was a parent, if I was my father and he has to make choices --- what would his have been? And my character comes from a time when it wasn’t even spoken of. So that, and the fact that I’m gay too. And non-married. It was just what he went through and how he resolved that it was okay.   That’s how life is.

T: Well, and there seems to be a pretty significant progression or growth in him, being some what closed-minded towards the beginning of the film and through the experiences of Karen. And McClain having his eyes opened to maybe experiencing the world in a different way..

S: Yeah, it opened my eyes, and my character’s eyes.

T: Right. I have the privilege of traveling around the country talking to young people about how they see hate manifest in their communities. Was there a time in your life when you were marginalized or picked on or for something that made you different?

S: Only once and that was in grammar school. Someone called me sissy while I was playing basketball. So I don’t know what I was playing basketball like, “a sissy,” but usually when something like that happens, personally, I shut down and avoid that person. And then those who heard me called sissy, I avoided them too. And this is [during the] transition from grammar, junior high, to high school. So in a way it was easy to separate myself from those people who were present when I was called sissy. Yeah, it it’s so pernicious. It’s so --- it lingers. You’re the first person I’ve ever spoken to about it.

T: Oh, well thank you. I don’t mean to also have you talk about something you’re uncomfortable to talk about.

S: No, no it’s something I’ve thought about through the years, but I’ve never had an occasion to talk about it. But as I’m talking, yeah it affected me a lot. It’s little, but for a kid, I have no other tangible example.

T: No, I have to say that … in middle school, for me, was a torturous time, and if one person, not even publicly had had the courage to come up to me in private and say “I want you to know that I saw what they did to you earlier and it’s not okay with me.” But that would have made all the difference in the world. Not necessarily a public admission. But someone just admitting that it wasn’t all in my head.

S: Yeah. Well the thing is that being called sissy --- I didn’t think that I was gay. But, I knew that I was different. So I think that’s why I reacted and, it affected me so. I mean there’s so many things at that early age that…

T: Well, and you might not know what those things are that make you different, but people are perfectly ready to point them out to you, which makes you realize that something about you isn’t like everybody else. At least that was my experience.

S: True. True.

T: And you learn pretty quickly that those are things that you shouldn’t talk about. At least I did. And then it might lead to you thinking that there’s something wrong with you, which was my case.

S: Right … Oh yeah, exactly.

T: And the ability to have an adult or someone in a public, just acknowledge that they might know what you’re going through. Which I think for us is the purpose of all that we do here at the Foundation. Is if there’s one young person in an auditorium of 500 kids that walks out realizing that they’re perfectly fine exactly the way that they are --- for us that’s what it’s all about. And I think that’s what it’s all about and, I think that’s what this movie is going to do. I think it’s going to help young people realize that they can stand up for themselves.

S: Yeah. To see a movie, let alone talking about it.

T: Right. Well, what do you think is the overarching message of the film?

S: That we’re all connected. Whether you’re gay, straight, we’re all connected. There’s someone who has AIDS or maybe it could be just two or three degrees [apart], but we’re all connected. You don’t have to accept it, but not to take physical action toward people.

T: Right. And there is, there is some characters in the film that have some pretty deep-seated issues of hate. And I guess I’m just wondering your thoughts on where you think people develop those feelings? Where does that start?

S: Yeah. I was raised as a Buddhist … and what I know, what I hear of some Christians, that’s part of their dialogue. But as a Buddhist, raised as a Buddhist we never, those things, hate was never part of Buddhism.

T: Right. I’m Buddhist myself so I understand what you’re saying.

S: So, it’s sort of, when I hear it, it’s so, “That’s a religion”?  Well, I can’t say it’s Christianity but I mean a lot of discussions from the church, the Bible and, where does it come from? A lot of times I think it comes from a lot of people who react --- that are people who don’t think too highly of themselves anyways.

T: Right. And then I also wonder if there’s an element of fear.

S: Oh, true.

T: I went to a Baptist college for two years and was called in the second semester of my second year. And the dean said, you have till 4 o’clock to get off campus, we don’t want you here because we think you’re homosexual. Bye. So that was my wake-up call.

S: Oh my goodness.

T: And discovering through friends that I could actually think about the world in a different way --- that the world wasn’t just the way I was told the world had to be. And for me it was Eastern philosophy and Buddhism that helped me realize that I was perfectly fine the way that I was, and whatever you consider the Divine wasn’t judgment and damnation, but love and compassion. So anyway, deep conversation. I say that because I see that with so many young people who are having the crisis of faith: ‘How can I be who I am and still love a value system that says that people like me aren’t okay?’

S: Yes. Yes.

T: And I think that this films shows that, that the importance of us showing compassion and generosity to another human being. Which is what I think Karen does for McClain. Regardless of what anyone thinks of her, she says, “This boy needs my support.” And unknowingly, McClain gives her something. So I guess, what would you hope someone who watches the film takes away from it?

S: Compassion. Understanding.  It’s wonderful to have, and I think Karen’s character has a wonderful supporting family. And the family, in which I like the father and the mother, because we had humor.

T: Very much so.

S: Yeah. There’s a lot of laughter in the family.

T: Well, and sometimes I wonder how families or close loved ones can get to the place that the family was in the movie without something tragic happening. Like, why does it take something tragic for people to realize how much they care about each other? Does that make sense?

S: Yeah I suppose we just, like any relationship, you have to work at it. You just can’t assume.

T: Oh very much so. Very much so. Well what are you working on now? Anything new that we should be looking for?

S: I’m going to start rehearsing a play called “No, No, Boy”. It’s about the people who, the kids who said no during the World War II-determent camp.

T: Oh, okay.

S: They say no, that they will not join the army, and the reasons why --- one was “Why should we? We’re already prisoners of war.” And the conflict within the Japanese community. A lot of the “no, no, boys” who said, “No, we won’t go,” they were ostracized from the Japanese-American community. They saw them as traitors.

T: So they were ostracized for saying no?

S: Yeah. And now, now this play is trying to heal the wound from the past because there’s still many people, they’re older now, but many people who still say that the “no, no boys” were wrong. But it’s not a matter of discussion, it’s not what was right or wrong --- it is that this is their beliefs and thato they did it because of the love of their country to. I mean it’s unconstitutional. It was like if it happened today I think everybody would say “No. Why should we go? For one, why are we in camp, interned?”

T: Oh, very much so.

S: “So why should we fight if our parents are…” I was interred as a 3-year-old. Families were --- didn’t make sense.

T: Well, but the stories like this are so important, which is what I see from young people who have no idea the experiences of people that have come before them.

S: True.

T:  Your experience is outside of their own lives. So I admire you for being a part of, of a story that needs to be told.

S: Yup. Yup.

T: So are you --- is that in L.A. or New York?

S: In Los Angeles.

T: Okay.

S: It’s written by Ken Natasaki.

T: Oh, okay. Well I, if I should ever come to L.A. to speak at a school or something I’ll have Diana get in touch. I would love to share a meal with you.

T: We’re honored to be connected and thank you so much for chatting with me.

S: You’re welcome. Thank you.

T: Have a great evening.

S: You too.

T: Okay. Buh-bye.

S: Buh-bye