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Interview with Diana Lee Inosanto (Writer, Director, Producer),
Ron Balicki (Producer), and Tarik Heitmann (Producer)
By: Thomas Howard, Jr., Webmaster
MP: Diana, tell us a little about where this story came from.
D: Oh my gosh. I think it’s a story that’s been in the works for a long time. And it’s just basically because, growing up … there’s just many different things I’ve seen in my life that really pertain to the themes of this movie, about prejudice. I mean, I would have to say it started with a man named Gilbert Johnson, [who] was the man that helped finish the Tao of Jeet Kune Do, which was written by my late honorary uncle/godfather-figure, Bruce Lee. And he was a straight man, he was a martial artist, he was a writer for a lot of martial arts publications and in the 80’s he had ended up becoming an activist with the gay community, even though he was a straight man. And that was because he had contracted the AIDS virus which back then was thought as the “gay disease,” if you remember back then. So anyway, seeing what he had to go through and watching him say, “Hey, listen, this is not just a gay disease, but this is a disease that can affect anyone, straight or gay,” --- made me understand something about our limited perceptions and our prejudices that we can carry and don’t even realize we’re carrying them. So he always left such a huge impression on my life. And then later on, years later you had Matthew’s case, and my own cousin had come out as a gay woman and I really started thinking how the gay community is just hit with this, what I call the “double-whammy” of prejudice, where they were the fall people for the “gay disease,” I mean for the AIDS virus, or just being judged for their sexual orientation. And also too, I myself being bi-racial --- my father was an Asian man, my mother was Caucasian --- I understood what it was like to watch what they went through. I mean, they got married four years before the ban on the interracial marriage was lifted in this country. So I’m very sensitive to these kinds of things. And so basically “The Sensei” really was just … a collection of observations that I’ve had in my lifetime. And also too what I’ve seen in the martial arts, where I’ve seen martial arts schools turn down people because they were gay, because they were afraid of the repercussions that could happen business-wise [if] they allow somebody from different a sexual orientation. So it’s all together, just kind of a collage of all these experiences that came together and molded “The Sensei.”
R: There’s also the point that Diana kind of touched on --- the whole martial arts community. On another note, even outside like the whole area of sexual orientation, was women being denied a black belt or an instructor in the martial arts because they were a woman. Diana and I both trained in systems under instructors who felt that way. Most people nowadays, they see martial arts schools and they wouldn’t think that exists anymore, but it’s still out there also.
TH: It’s a great point that Ron was just making.
MP: I talk to a lot of high school kids and I guess my question is, what would you hope that a young person who is maybe a victim of bullying, or who may think that life isn’t going to get better, or that no one understands what they’re going through --- what would you hope that they would take away from experiencing the film?
D: The bully? The bully or the person…
MP: The bully-ee, the person who’s being bullied.
D: I think one thing I would hope is that no matter what, we [understand that] in society there’s so many messages that we get about what it is to be perfect, to be pretty, to be skinny, or this and that. And particularly for kids that are bullied, that may feel like they’re insecure, and particularly gay teenagers [who have a] high rate of suicide --- one of the key lines that I have in my movie is, “You have a right to defend yourself, not only against hatred, but self hatred.” And I wrote that line very specifically, because I think one of the first things in order to battle some of the elements outside of ourselves, is that we have to learn somehow to strengthen our inner love for our self, to spawn that, to accept ourselves. Because I think that’s the first step to healing. Because no matter what anybody says about you --- whether like in my case, I used to be called a chink, I used to be called a half-breed --- no matter how cruel the world can be, if you can learn to learn to accept yourself for who you are, that is the first step in healing yourself spiritually. That’s what I feel. Then when you start to come upon people who are cruel, who do or say things that are unkind, unloving and hateful, you find that you’re able to block, or to arm yourself against that kind of hate. So it’s really about building the blocks within yourself, to go against the elements outside. Then of course I’m always one that’s very proactive in saying I do believe in learning some form of self-defense because, let’s face it, we do live in a time where sometimes, once in a while, there might be somebody that can threaten you physically. And I think it’s a good thing to know something. So it’s about both --- just arming yourself spiritually, and arming yourself physically.
MP: Well I think a great point in the movie and what some young people are going to take away, is the ability, or the idea, that someone does care about you even if you think that there is no one that understands you. That at some point in our lives a Karen is going to come along. I mean actually, or metaphorically --- but that we sometimes have to look for that Karen.
D: Absolutely. Absolutely.
R: Thomas, if I can interject. I have some friends who are Asian. A long time ago they told me the first time they ever saw Bruce Lee, the empowerment that gave them, by seeing this man. Everything in the movies before Bruce Lee was depicted as the chop sakio, like the Mr. Chans, Charlie Chan or something like a servant. And here is this guy who empowered the Asian community. And we were hoping maybe McClain could be that [gay] character to say, “Hey everything out there --- you can overcome this, you can prevail, and you have self worth, and --- go on!”
MP: I also feel that in “The Sensei,” McClain’s sexual orientation doesn’t define him; it is an aspect of who he is. But it’s not all of who he is. If that makes sense. And I think that’s an atypical representation. That usually when you see a character in film or television that happens to be gay or lesbian, that’s what’s brought to the forefront --- not who they are as a person. So I commend you on that, because I think that that again forwards someone realizing that they are no different than everyone else. And Sab [Shamoto] and I were talking about his role as the patriarch and why it seems that families choose to keep their eyes closed until a crisis makes it where they cannot keep their eyes closed anymore. I think that’s one of the great things about this film --- showing that, but also, how can we as individuals not wait until the crisis comes? To have our eyes forced open.
D: Absolutely.
R: Yeah. Absolutely.
D: Absolutely, and I think too that comes by having these discussions when children are young. I wish, growing up, I really wished that I would have had more of a dialogue about these issues --- they didn’t have to come later on. Like when my cousin was coming out as a gay woman, it was so difficult, and she had to be so careful. But I will say this: when I think about, for instance, Matthew’s case, it was a real awakening for me, because I started thinking the thought of anybody putting their hands on my cousin. I just thought, “Oh my God, what an awakening.” And then I started thinking, “I wish we would have had this discussion, to where she didn’t have to feel she had to be so careful, like she was walking on eggshells in the family.”
R: And they were really close. So this is why it dawned on her at first that she would hide all this when she really didn’t need to. But I guess she had to during that time.
MP: I also think that the film shows that it’s okay to stand up for someone. I remember middle school. Middle school was torturous for me.
D: Aw, yeah.
MP: And the one thing that would made it better was if someone had just come up to me, even in private, and looked at me and said, “I want you to know I saw what happened to you and it’s not okay with me.”
D: Yeah.
MP: That’s all that would have taken.
R: Wow. Wow.
MP: I think this film shows that it doesn’t take grand gestures to show that you care about someone.
D: Absolutely. That’s one of the reasons why I had to have the character Darrel, which was played by Germaine De Leon, who did such a wonderful job. Not only is he a witness to what happened to McClain, but he makes that step. Because I think too that it’s important in film and movies to model these characters so that people who are watching this, people that are impressionable can say, “Hey, this is a model that I can have for myself so when I see something like this in reality, I can step up to the plate and do something right.” So to me Germaine De Leon’s character was very important, Darrel, who makes a choice to talk to Brian Frank’s character, and discuss this. Because I think there are going to be a lot of kids that can relate to his character --- kids that are right there on the fence where they know it’s wrong and they don’t know what to do. So hopefully this is a film that will encourage kids to do the right thing and speak up and say stuff.
MP: I completely agree. Because the number one response that we get is “I’m not going to say anything because I don’t want people to think I’m one of them ---
I don’t want people to think I’m gay or lesbian.” And I always ask high school and college students how often they witness an incident of hate in their community and I do not lie when I say that 98% of the kids I ask that question to say they witness something on an hourly basis.
D: Uh.
TH: That’s kind of scary actually to be honest. I mean that’s part of the reason why Diana put this scene in the first confrontation where McClain actually steps up to his assailant. Everyone, you can actually see the turn, the shift of tide towards actually stepping up and saying exactly what they want to say.
MP: Well there’s an empowerment in it.
T: Exactly. You’re absolutely right about that.
MP: And in that scene McClain takes ownership of his own experience. He no longer allows the bully to own him. He’s taken the experience into his own hands, at least that’s my interpretation.
D: Absolutely. He’s drawing a line. Because sometimes we think, “Oh, how dare you do that?” But we also need to be cognizant that someone is acting that way for a specific reason and it may have nothing to with the person they’re bullying. Well I’ve got to tell you, I mean, I think about Lawrence King’s case because that’s not too far away from where I live. In any case there’s just some bullies, I bet [that] … they’re just not awake to what they’re doing on a emotional, on a spiritual level. They’re just not awake. They have no idea. They’re just not evolved yet to understand the kind of pain that they’re inflicting on another human being. Yet at the same time, interestingly enough, most bullies themselves are the victims. So it’s just a little vicious cycle. But I commend so many schools that are trying now to do the right thing. Like when we were screening “The Sensei” in Seattle, Washington, it was I believe Families Against Hate and the Safe Schools Coalition that were definitely championing our film out there because of incidents of hate in their school and bullying. So I definitely commend it. There are groups out there that are really trying to reach people and make them aware and reach students and reach for the better.
MP: Were you concerned at all about pushback with in the entertainment martial arts community for telling a story like this?
D: I definitely was, because when I talked to Tarik and Ron about this, I think we all understand --- particularly because of who my family is --- that the martial arts world has been notoriously conservative for a long, long time. So here I am going out on a limb basically addressing a topic that, really, people have always tried to avoid in martial arts schools. Because like I said, it wasn’t uncommon for me to see martial arts school owners that I knew deny somebody because they were afraid of the repercussions. But I’m amazed, despite the fact that I know that there are some people in the martial arts community and high profile people that I know have been on the conservative side, after seeing this movie [they] have really changed their tune. And it’s gotten some people to talk. And then I have martial arts students who said, “I’m gay and I’m so glad you made this movie. Thank you for making this movie.” And then other ones, other friends of ours, colleagues, who have just said, “I have someone in my family that’s been a victim of hate.” And so you’re seeing a change in the tide. And so I’m just glad that people are talking. I’m amazed how well, like, Black Belt Magazine has responded to us, and Inside Kung Fu, and those are leading publications in the martial arts world. And also across the seas in England and in Europe. I’m amazed.
R: But overseas and Europe have looked at it like, “So”? Gay, big deal?” They accept it; it’s such a big deal in America, it seems, more than abroad.
D: I think it’s still there’s a political element obviously, too.
R: Maybe, but almost everyone I’ve shown it to, they’re just more accepting and that really saddens me about our country. It’s like, “Come on, get on board! This is nothing!”
MP: Well, right. And I always ask the question, “How does my sexual orientation affect your life? How does the ability for me to marry another man directly affect your life?” And no one can give me an answer.
D: Right, right.
MP: If you don’t want me to force my values and judgments onto you, then don’t force your values and judgments onto me.
D: Yeah. Yeah.
R: Absolutely.
MP: What are your thoughts on the responsibility of people in the entertainment industry, people who have been given a voice by the public, to use that voice to forward acceptance, as opposed to not forwarding acceptance?
D: I don’t think Hollywood is that liberal. I don’t.
R: Oh, I’m with you.
D: I don’t think they’re that liberal. I think they still have a long way to go. And I say this as a female director now. Most of the movies that are made right now, women only represent seven percent of the movies made here in the U.S. Now this is 2010. I can tell you right now that among friends of mine that belong to the Screen Actors Guild who are African-American, Hispanic, or Asian, there’s still this thing where they’ve had to, in the union, ask, if certain contracts [exist] that allowed people of mixed race --- like you almost have to negotiate, “If you pick so many minorities to be in your film we’ll give you this contract.” I mean … it’s just something that should kind of happen naturally in the process.
MP: Well, what about it in the stunt community Diana?
D: In the stunt community? I would say the same thing for both women and minorities. There’s still a lot of evolving they have to do. It’s not that the industry is easy, period. And especially now with the economy, it’s been a challenge. But I can say overall it’s just historical, even in the stunt world, there’s still basically advocates that have to make sure, [because] the stunt community and the heads of those stunt coordinators that do movies are cautious about hiring people of color. And hiring women.
TH: Women --- it’s especially, it’s very, very difficult. But Thomas, just to answer Diana’s thing, I think personally people are very liberal but when it comes to projecting it outward, especially If you’re trying to make sales for it, like a film, into the international market --- I mean you got Germany, you got China, you got all these different places, I don’t think they would accept it.
MP: Right. Right.
TH: If you have a big star openly coming out, they’re not going to be able to film that film. And it’s going to be dead. That’s unfortunately the preconception.
MP: And I hear you. And for us even it’s difficult to get people on the record who are straight actors that will speak positively about equality. I can only think of one since we’ve started this interview with this series on Matthew’s Place. I’m having a chat with Rob Thomas tomorrow morning, and it’s very exciting for us because he’s the only straight musician or actor who has said, “I’m going to talk about these issues.” I completely understand the business. But I think that your voice, the three of your voices, and Joey and the other people that I’ve talked to --- it’s so powerful to say, “This is a story that needs to be told. We’re going to tell it because we know that it needs to be told.”
R: Exactly.
MP: So I have to say thank you from all of us for having the courage to do that, because there are so many people who don’t have the courage. Yes, someone will find a teddy bear for us but when you ask to talk to them, no.
R: Right.
D: Wow.
MP: I say that because I think that’s the power of your movie.
D: Thank you.
MP: And again we’ve talked about this before, I think that there’s an educational piece that could come along in the future
R: Yeah.
D: Oh, I would love that.
MP: Where the film can be an educational tool that schools can use.
D: I hope and pray so. And I come from a family of educators too and I would definitely love to see that. I think when I was in Vegas, you, we, just couldn’t believe it we were both there at the same time.
R: I wanted to interject on a point earlier with people, celebrities, and I don’t know how up-the-food-chain Louis Mandylor would be, but he’s as macho as they come and he’s totally sincere with himself, and he’d be willing to throw punches with anybody who would attack someone of any orientation. And I think with him you have an ally, and he has access to a lot of other people that I think would come out too. He’s a very stand up person and I think that’s why he was so eager to come on board.
MP: What do you hope that someone will take away from watching the movie?
D: Depending I guess on their walk and if they are somebody who is more prone to be a bully type, I’m hoping that they become aware and start to really be mindful of how they are. For the person that’s sitting on that fence that maybe sees this thing over and over and just doesn’t say anything, doesn’t want to get involved, I’m hoping this might encourage them now to do something, to do the right thing. To react. And to somebody who has walked a life to where they feel that they’ve been more in the victim role --- I’m hoping that it will be a first step into them having that [feeling] that, “Hey, it’s okay to like myself for who I am, it’s okay to love myself and really be aware I don’t have to absorb some of the messages, the negative messages out there that I’m not okay or I’m not right.” And that’s very important to me and I just hope that people’s minds and hearts will be changed and that they will hopefully save some lives too, in the process too. The teenage suicide rates, particularly among gay teenagers, I find that extremely disturbing. And I just hope I can reach out to those kids. To hang in there, you know? And that’s what I love so much about the Matthew Shepard Foundation. I think you guys are a vessel, a vehicle, to really make those kids understand. You guys really are the symbolic parent when you think about it. You guys are the ones that make people, to some poor child out there that doesn’t have a support system, [see] that they’re okay. And there are other places and people that understand where they are coming from.
MP: Right.
R: What Diana did in the script that she’s just gone over is, she made … three pastors. We have her brother, and then we have what we like to refer as the “hard hearted” [character], and we have the pastor who is on the fence and McClain helped him and he was willing to listen to the story.
D: That was Keith David, he would’ve been the pastor that would have been on the fence.
R: Yeah.
MP: Well then you had the Buddhist Monk.
D: Right.
TH: The Buddhist Monk, yeah.
R: But I mean I’d like to look at it that way --- if other people had the chance to listen to the story before they made a judgment, if, after the whole story, maybe, it would be a different game for everyone.
MP: Right. Right.
TH: We’re definitely hoping that students in general will actually consider that when watching the movie. Especially if they’re confronted, or having to deal with another student being confronted, in their back yards. Something we definitely think is important.
R: That’s awesome. Well, we’re honored to be with you, and if there’s anything you need, we’ll go in head-first.
D: Yeah.
MP: Perfect. And I will probably be making a trip to L.A. the beginning of May so I’ll keep all of you posted.
D: Oh excellent, excellent. And like I said, you guys really are the sensei. I mean that’s why I named the movie. It’s a metaphor for how we are student teachers to one another. And you guys, Thomas, you and Judy, you guys are a guiding light of education and knowledge for people
MP: Well, thank you so much.
D: You’re very welcome.
D: Bye.
MP: Bye.
R: Buh-bye.
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